This bill will be up for scrutiny until the 12th of May, after which it will move to a vote
Withdrawal from the Solidarity Pact of NSLeft
Category: Miscelleaneous Author: The DSA Cabinet Will come into effect: after the withdrawal of NationStates embassies Co-Sponsors: Gallo Republic, Dankass Communes, Oh My God It Is So Hard to Find a Name, Slotheria, Cessnia, United Syndicates of Sol, Mauvemarke, Pyceilline, Rhinemank, Rkiande Anatrom, Liossalde, Eythronia, Qingling, Nixanu, Guancamole, Balkvla Islands, La Pays de Soliel, Visrava, Chromatica, Dekks, Cooperative Surrey, Xingal
Chapter I: General Provisions
1. This act may be referred to as 'Withdrawal from the Solidarity pact of NSLeft' 2. This act will come into force upon passage
Chapter II: Withdrawal from the Solidarity Pact
1. Upon passage, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will process the withdrawal from the Solidarity Pact of NSLeft
2. Upon passage the Ministry of Foreign Affairs shall move to withdraw the embassy with the NSLeft region on NationStates.
Secretary-General - 1st Council President & WAD - 33rd, 34th and 35th Cabinet Minister of Foreign Affairs - 32nd Cabinet Minister of Domestic Affairs - 30th and 31st Cabinet Minister of Immigration and Regional Promotion (Defunct) - 28th Cabinet
Post by devintheroaster on May 9, 2020 20:03:30 GMT
I urge the DSA to vote against this.
By other memberstates of NS Left's account we had a generally pleasant relationship with them and from my own and other member's perspective, this relationship has been on the up and up. Last Cabinet we were talking about having discussions with NS Left about potentially figuring out how to solve... whatever our issue was. We never strictly defined what we found wrong with them and avoided any chat with them despite them being eager to engage is said chatter.
Ever since we broke relations with The Internationale, things have been quiet and I thought things were on the up and up, similar to our brothers, sisters and enbies in the other regions of NS Left. I had been talking with the other members about starting to reorganize the book club and other various activities to start up interregional activity once again. Then suddenly... this. I see no reason for it and this bill makes no attempt to make a reason for it either.
So let me just pose some questions:
1. Why is Cabinet wishing to leave NS Left? Not personal problems with NS Left, but why is Cabinet supporting this?
2. What has happened to bring this up now after a month of what has been peaceful times which has even seen more chatter and event organization begin?
3. Can we have specific examples of anything NS Left has done against us, assuming they have done something? (With proof, not simply claims please.)
4. What have we done with NS Left to remedy this before calling for simply breaking embassies?
I know that last Cabinet we had discussed the idea of talking and I had tried again and again to get talks to commence, but those had to be led by a diplomat, and was never done. NS Left stood at the ready for these talks. To my knowledge, these talks never occurred since my leave of Cabinet.
I know that NS Left has had their frustrations with us in the previous Cabinet, but that had to do more with the drama between us and TI than with us personally. Similarly now, they're frustrated with the drama that this is stirring up. But they've been good to us. I just don't get this.
As a final note: Could we try to normalize relations and make stronger ties? We haven't done that with NS Left in a long time and I would like to see it happen. This is the opposite of that, and I see no reason for this.
President in the 26th Cabinet Sec-Gen in the 28th, 30th, 31st and 34th Cabinets MoRP in the 25th and 26th Cabinets MoIRP in the 28th Cabinet Administrator Emeritus 21 November 2018-9 April 2019 Ambassador to The Communist Bloc 9 Augest 2018-1 November 2018
I urge the people of the DSA to vote FOR this as NSLeft is no longer beneficial for us and does not mesh with our region's charter very well. Certain elements within NSLeft also attack us any chance they get as to purposely attempt to stir up trouble. I feel that by remaining with NSLeft, we open ourselves up to even more of the toxicity.
I urge the people of the DSA to vote FOR this as NSLeft is no longer beneficial for us and does not mesh with our region's charter very well. Certain elements within NSLeft also attack us any chance they get as to purposely attempt to stir up trouble. I feel that by remaining with NSLeft, we open ourselves up to even more of the toxicity.
I think this is greatly exaggerated. NS Left has not been beneficial as of late because we have blocked it and not allowed it to be. We haven't had enough breathing room to open up relations and every time we start, we're breaking another treaty or yelling again. I have never seen them troll us and stir up trouble for the hell of it. They're not a toxic group and are generally swell folk. As far as meshing with the Charter, some of them are more authoritarian, but I don't think it's anything that goes against the Charter, as those individuals are within their region, and the goals of NS Left are purely, or nearly purely anticapitalism and antifascism which are tenants that we share.
President in the 26th Cabinet Sec-Gen in the 28th, 30th, 31st and 34th Cabinets MoRP in the 25th and 26th Cabinets MoIRP in the 28th Cabinet Administrator Emeritus 21 November 2018-9 April 2019 Ambassador to The Communist Bloc 9 Augest 2018-1 November 2018
I urge the people of the DSA to vote FOR this as NSLeft is no longer beneficial for us and does not mesh with our region's charter very well. Certain elements within NSLeft also attack us any chance they get as to purposely attempt to stir up trouble. I feel that by remaining with NSLeft, we open ourselves up to even more of the toxicity.
I think this is greatly exaggerated. NS Left has not been beneficial as of late because we have blocked it and not allowed it to be. We haven't had enough breathing room to open up relations and every time we start, we're breaking another treaty or yelling again. I have never seen them troll us and stir up trouble for the hell of it. They're not a toxic group and are generally swell folk. As far as meshing with the Charter, some of them are more authoritarian, but I don't think it's anything that goes against the Charter, as those individuals are within their region, and the goals of NS Left are purely, or nearly purely anticapitalism and antifascism which are tenants that we share.
We share those tenants yes, but unlike the main voices of NSleft, we do not deny the intentionality of the Holodomor, nor deny the seriousness of the Uyghur camps. These differences are deep and not to be overlooked if we are to maintain any semblance of the leftist values we say we hold.
Upon the authority of the Stonerose Throne, servant to the people.
I think this is greatly exaggerated. NS Left has not been beneficial as of late because we have blocked it and not allowed it to be. We haven't had enough breathing room to open up relations and every time we start, we're breaking another treaty or yelling again. I have never seen them troll us and stir up trouble for the hell of it. They're not a toxic group and are generally swell folk. As far as meshing with the Charter, some of them are more authoritarian, but I don't think it's anything that goes against the Charter, as those individuals are within their region, and the goals of NS Left are purely, or nearly purely anticapitalism and antifascism which are tenants that we share.
We share those tenants yes, but unlike the main voices of NSleft, we do not deny the intentionality of the Holodomor, nor deny the seriousness of the Uyghur camps. These differences are deep and not to be overlooked if we are to maintain any semblance of the leftist values we say we hold.
Regarding the Holodomor, that's even debated at the scholarly level with no consensus. They're not denying that it had happened. In regard to the Uyghur camps, I haven't seen specific arguments, but I'll assume that they're assuming capitalist slants to hurt China's view. While I highly disagree with that and hardcore agree with you and most DSA members on the atrocity, I still think they're entitled to believe or not believe things when they're not fully documented or are the subject of peculation due to being current news or scholarly debated subjects. As long as they're not taking this into the case pressing against actual leftist values and say that a dictatorship or regime was actually good or "not that bad" and are chatting in good faith.
All this said, I think we should discuss what we see as problems and go into a meeting with the intention to fix them and have actual discussion. Not simply slam the door on our way out. We never to my knowledge had those discussions to fix things like we were going to. Why can't we try that?
President in the 26th Cabinet Sec-Gen in the 28th, 30th, 31st and 34th Cabinets MoRP in the 25th and 26th Cabinets MoIRP in the 28th Cabinet Administrator Emeritus 21 November 2018-9 April 2019 Ambassador to The Communist Bloc 9 Augest 2018-1 November 2018
I feel like I've restated this a billion times, but to say it again: NSLeft is not our friend. The struggle of Leftists is not merely against rightists and capitalists, it is also against authoritarians. True leftism and authoritarianism is not compatible. And no, I'm not being sectarian, because authoritarians aren't real leftists. Are we a Leftist region, or are we an anti-capitalist one? Is our sole purpose as people to fight capitalists or to support the rights of all people worldwide? And don't hit me with that "It's just a game shit", because while it is just a game, the beliefs of the people NSLeft gives a platform are not. They are legitimately the enemy, they are the people who have set back our struggle as Communists centuries. And I can no longer respect anyone who would bend to them over a game. If you would like to tolerate authoritarians, if you would like to pretend they haven't deeply damaged our struggle as leftists and societies worldwide as a whole, if you would like to pretend their ideologies are at all valid, then I don't know what more to say to you. But, if you're one of those who agree with me, and who know that authoritarians have nothing but a harmful affect on our world, I encourage you to vote for this legislation.
This isn't just a game. This is a symbol, a very real symbol, of whether or not we as people are willing to tolerate authoritarians because they'll help us against capitalists, in the face of all their crimes against humanity and the insult to Leftism their ideas pose. Please keep this in mind when you vote.
So just to reiterate the thoughts I mentioned when this was discussed in Closed Door Cabinet. I think withdrawing from the NSLeft is a mistake. Clearly this is related to the breakdown in relations with The Internationale, and although I would agree with the distaste and disgust for some of the hyper-authoritarian beliefs some of their members and leadership holds, I don't think anyone is asking us to be best friends with The Internationale here. We just need to tolerate each other and recognize each other as members of the NSLeft. I don't think we even need to rebuild embassies with them. We don't need to agree with the beliefs of every member of the NSLeft, but we need to recognize that we share common goals that we can do much more to achieve these goals by working together than by working alone. We're not going to be able to replace the NSLeft any day soon, period. There's no comparable organizations and anything we build will not even be remotely comparable. We should seek a diplomatic solution to our differences with the NSLeft, withdrawal should be a tool of last resort when the diplomatic options have been completely exhausted.
Secretary-General - 33rd, 35th Cabinets Director of World Assembly Affairs - 29th Cabinet Ambassador to Social Liberal Union - 28th, 29th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th Cabinets Ambassador to Europeia - 32nd Cabinet Cabinet Aide to MoDA - 33rd, 34th Cabinets
So just to reiterate the thoughts I mentioned when this was discussed in Closed Door Cabinet. I think withdrawing from the NSLeft is a mistake. Clearly this is related to the breakdown in relations with The Internationale, and although I would agree with the distaste and disgust for some of the hyper-authoritarian beliefs some of their members and leadership holds, I don't think anyone is asking us to be best friends with The Internationale here. We just need to tolerate each other and recognize each other as members of the NSLeft. I don't think we even need to rebuild embassies with them. We don't need to agree with the beliefs of every member of the NSLeft, but we need to recognize that we share common goals that we can do much more to achieve these goals by working together than by working alone. We're not going to be able to replace the NSLeft any day soon, period. There's no comparable organizations and anything we build will not even be remotely comparable. We should seek a diplomatic solution to our differences with the NSLeft, withdrawal should be a tool of last resort when the diplomatic options have been completely exhausted.
This has really been building up for a while, especially over the last year. Seems to me like it's reached its breaking point though. And certainly TI was a part of that but not THE reason this is happening. People have been vocal about leaving NSLeft for well over a year now.
Sure, but I think that's what's behind the recent attempts to leave the NSLeft. I just think we need to put in more of an effort to find a diplomatic solution here rather than going for the nuclear option of just leaving the NSLeft entirely.
Secretary-General - 33rd, 35th Cabinets Director of World Assembly Affairs - 29th Cabinet Ambassador to Social Liberal Union - 28th, 29th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th Cabinets Ambassador to Europeia - 32nd Cabinet Cabinet Aide to MoDA - 33rd, 34th Cabinets
So just to reiterate the thoughts I mentioned when this was discussed in Closed Door Cabinet. I think withdrawing from the NSLeft is a mistake. Clearly this is related to the breakdown in relations with The Internationale, and although I would agree with the distaste and disgust for some of the hyper-authoritarian beliefs some of their members and leadership holds, I don't think anyone is asking us to be best friends with The Internationale here. We just need to tolerate each other and recognize each other as members of the NSLeft. I don't think we even need to rebuild embassies with them. We don't need to agree with the beliefs of every member of the NSLeft, but we need to recognize that we share common goals that we can do much more to achieve these goals by working together than by working alone. We're not going to be able to replace the NSLeft any day soon, period. There's no comparable organizations and anything we build will not even be remotely comparable. We should seek a diplomatic solution to our differences with the NSLeft, withdrawal should be a tool of last resort when the diplomatic options have been completely exhausted.
This has really been building up for a while, especially over the last year. Seems to me like it's reached its breaking point though. And certainly TI was a part of that but not THE reason this is happening. People have been vocal about leaving NSLeft for well over a year now.
I hold to that we can turn things around though. We haven't tried at all and I'd really like to try. More games, discussions and chatter amongst us. Makes it so involvement on the NS Left server by DSAers and other NS Lefters in higher and get us all chatting. A big part of why we have grown a distaste of them is we and them would mostly pop over to disagree on a political point and we'd all argue. And then the screenshots would flood around. This is a problem of not enough involvement with them. I'm not saying this is the only problem, but I believe this would be a major step in the right direction. Get people talking with one another. I've heard some nasty, grossly out of character things of many of the folks I know on both sides from people on either side. The problem is that we don't know each other at all and focus on the negative. Let's give some positive and work towards fixing any other issues as we get everyone on the same page.
President in the 26th Cabinet Sec-Gen in the 28th, 30th, 31st and 34th Cabinets MoRP in the 25th and 26th Cabinets MoIRP in the 28th Cabinet Administrator Emeritus 21 November 2018-9 April 2019 Ambassador to The Communist Bloc 9 Augest 2018-1 November 2018
Clearly this is related to the breakdown in relations with The Internationale, and although I would agree with the distaste and disgust for some of the hyper-authoritarian beliefs some of their members and leadership holds, I don't think anyone is asking us to be best friends with The Internationale here. We just need to tolerate each other and recognize each other as members of the NSLeft.
Recognizing each other as members of NSLeft would mean we need to recognize authoritarians(the people TI and other NSLeft regions tolerate) as leftists, and authoritarians are not real leftists. The solution is then to accept that NSLeft is not a region exclusively for real leftists, and to leave.
And if anyone is confused by or takes issue with the term Fake Leftist: I only use it because Fascism is generally accepted as an exclusively far right ideology. Even so, Fascist more applies to these people than Leftist.
Clearly this is related to the breakdown in relations with The Internationale, and although I would agree with the distaste and disgust for some of the hyper-authoritarian beliefs some of their members and leadership holds, I don't think anyone is asking us to be best friends with The Internationale here. We just need to tolerate each other and recognize each other as members of the NSLeft.
Recognizing each other as members of NSLeft would mean we need to recognize authoritarians(the people TI and other NSLeft regions tolerate) as leftists, and authoritarians are not real leftists. The solution is then to accept that NSLeft is not a region exclusively for real leftists, and to leave.
They are leftists whether you like it or not. Just because they don't share your specific brand of leftism doesn't mean that they don't share some of the same common goals as you. If you look at how they vote in the WA it's going to be pretty similar to you. I agree that form of leftism is horrible, and I think the sort of garbage that Misley has spewed is disgusting. But at the end of the day, these people vote along side us and work with us to acheive our common goals. And I don't that because we find a small faction of the NSLeft to have deplorable views that we should abandon the whole thing. I mean the NSLeft just accepted Anarchy as a member. There's a significant libertarian presence in that organization.
Secretary-General - 33rd, 35th Cabinets Director of World Assembly Affairs - 29th Cabinet Ambassador to Social Liberal Union - 28th, 29th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th Cabinets Ambassador to Europeia - 32nd Cabinet Cabinet Aide to MoDA - 33rd, 34th Cabinets
Recognizing each other as members of NSLeft would mean we need to recognize authoritarians(the people TI and other NSLeft regions tolerate) as leftists, and authoritarians are not real leftists. The solution is then to accept that NSLeft is not a region exclusively for real leftists, and to leave.
They are leftists whether you like it or not. Just because they don't share your specific brand of leftism doesn't mean that they don't share some of the same common goals as you. If you look at how they vote in the WA it's going to be pretty similar to you. I agree that form of leftism is horrible, and I think the sort of garbage that Misley has spewed is disgusting. But at the end of the day, these people vote along side us and work with us to acheive our common goals. And I don't that because we find a small faction of the NSLeft to have deplorable views that we should abandon the whole thing. I mean the NSLeft just accepted Anarchy as a member. There's a significant libertarian presence in that organization.
No, Authoritarians aren't Leftists. The foremost tenant of Leftism is the respect of human rights. They do not. Authoritarians are merely fascists with a can of red paint.
I will respect many "brands" of Leftism not compatible with my own, but I will not in any circumstance respect authoritarianism or their adherents. There's no reason to respect those who have done nothing but harm the struggle of Leftism.
They are leftists whether you like it or not. Just because they don't share your specific brand of leftism doesn't mean that they don't share some of the same common goals as you. If you look at how they vote in the WA it's going to be pretty similar to you. I agree that form of leftism is horrible, and I think the sort of garbage that Misley has spewed is disgusting. But at the end of the day, these people vote along side us and work with us to acheive our common goals. And I don't that because we find a small faction of the NSLeft to have deplorable views that we should abandon the whole thing. I mean the NSLeft just accepted Anarchy as a member. There's a significant libertarian presence in that organization.
No, Authoritarians aren't Leftists. The foremost tenant of Leftism is the respect of human rights. They do not. Authoritarians are merely fascists with a can of red paint.
Clearly if you think that they're as bad as the far right, I don't know what to tell you. I don't think any serious academic would agree with that, and to me it just seems your criticism of this is more of an emotional response to the fact that there is a faction in the NSLeft whose ideologies disagree with you rather than thinking logically about what's good for the region. I don't think we should sabotage our position on the NSLeft and the broader NS community due to personal prejudices.
Secretary-General - 33rd, 35th Cabinets Director of World Assembly Affairs - 29th Cabinet Ambassador to Social Liberal Union - 28th, 29th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th Cabinets Ambassador to Europeia - 32nd Cabinet Cabinet Aide to MoDA - 33rd, 34th Cabinets